JENNIFER HENRIE-BROWN: So, I see, it's the top of the hour, so let's get started with our web conference. Welcome to our IRS presentation, Understanding Tax Relief for Disaster. We're glad you're joining us. My name is Jennifer Henrie-Brown and I am a Stakeholder Liaison at the Internal Revenue Service, and it is my pleasure to be your moderator for today's web conference, Understand Tax Relief for Disaster. But before we begin the presentation, I'd like to ask that if you are with the media, please send us an e-mail message at the address we provided on this slide. And that address is CL.SL.Web.Conference.Team@IRS.gov. In your e-mail, please include your contact information and the news publication you're with. Our media relations or Stakeholder Liaison staff can assist or answer questions you may have. Now this slide gives you some information if you have technical problems. I'll highlight a few of them. Audio for today's webinar will be available through your computer speakers only. A technical help document is also available, and I'll tell you how to access it on the next slide. And if you completed and passed your system check and still have problems, then you can try one of the following. One option is to close the screen where you're viewing the webinar and relaunch it. And the second option is to click the "Gear" icon on your viewing screen that you can find in the top-right corner of the slide and photo boxes. You'll be given two choices, select "Flash" instead of HLS from the available media box. Now, you may have received today's materials in a reminder e-mail, but if not, you can download the PowerPoint in PDF format and the technical help document that may assist you if you experience technology issue. So, to download, just click on the "Materials" button on the left side of your screen. Closed captioning is available for today's presentation, and if you're having trouble hearing the audio through your computer speakers, please click the "cc" button on the left side of your screen. This feature will be available throughout the broadcast. If you have a topic-specific question for us today, please submit them by clicking on the "Ask Question" button, also on the left side of your screen. Enter your question in the text box and don't forget to click the "Submit" button. Please, I can't emphasize this enough, please do not enter any sensitive or taxpayer-specific information. And most likely, the presentation content will cover your question, so please wait for your specific topic to be addressed before submitting your question. We appreciate your questions because they help us ensure we have relevant information on IRS.gov. So, send us your questions. But remember to click the "Submit" button. Now, during the presentation, we'll take a few breaks to share knowledge-based questions with you and at those times, a polling style feature will pop up on your screen with a question and multiple-choice answers. Select the response you believe is correct by clicking the radio button next to your selection and then click "Submit." Note, you may need to turn off your pop-up blocker to receive these questions, and if you do not get the pop-up box for responding, just go ahead and enter your response timely in the "Ask Question" feature so we can track your participation. Our presenters for today's web conference are Anna Falkenstein and Joseph McCarthy. Anna and Joe are Senior Stakeholder Liaisons in IRS' Communications and Liaison Division. Both work with tax professionals and small business owners providing outreach and education and identifying ways the agency can be more responsive to customers' needs. Well, there's no time like the present to get started, so Anna, I'll turn it over to you. ANNA FALKENSTEIN: Thanks, Jennifer. As Jennifer stated, I'm Anna Falkenstein and I'm going to get us started today by giving you an overview of today's webinar. Now, this presentation addresses the types of relief that may be provided as a result of a federally declared disaster. Please note that Congress may pass legislation specific to a particular disaster that may differ from these general rules. Now, in this presentation, we're going to discuss matters related to individual taxpayers. While we will touch on a few issues related to businesses, our main focus will be on disaster related relief provisions for individuals. The reason for this is that the rules that are related to casualty losses for businesses really have not changed, while the rules for individuals have. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act provided that for taxable years 2018 through 2025, any personal casualty loss shall be allowed as a deduction only to the extent that it was attributable to a federally declared disaster. Now, my co-presenter, Joe McCarthy is going to go over today's objectives. Joe. JOE MCCARTHY: Thanks, Anna. The objectives of today's presentation are to make you familiar with a number of different disaster-related tax topics. They include identifying types of relief available to taxpayers in a disaster area, calculating disaster area casualty losses, documenting casualty losses in a disaster area, obtaining information about federally declared disaster areas, and learning about IRS disaster assistance and emergency relief program. Now, today's presentation is not intended to make you an expert on the topic, but rather to raise your awareness related to these topics which can be quite complex at times. So, let's start with the types of relief that are available to taxpayers in a disaster area. Anna, do you want to go ahead and get us started on the different types of disaster relief available? FALKENSTEIN: Sure, Joe. So, there are a number of different types of federal tax relief that are available to victims of disasters. They include administrative relief, tax relief, safe harbor provisions and the election to claim disaster losses on a prior-year tax return. Now, each of these provisions offer a different type of relief, and in addition to each of these provisions, they have their own qualifying criteria, and that can make determining whether or not they apply to somebody in a particular situation a bit challenging. So that being said, we're going to be walking you through each of these relief provisions so that you will become a little more familiar with the fundamentals of each type of relief. Joe, I'm going to turn it back to you to highlight some of the key points for our audience. MCCARTHY: All right, Anna. Some of the key points we hope the viewers take away from this presentation are that there are two different types of relief for disaster victims, administrative relief and tax relief. The administrative relief is the granting of additional time to file tax returns like Form 1040, pay taxes like estimated taxes and perform other time sensitive tasks like contributing to a qualified retirement plan. Tax relief, on the other hand, is the claiming of a casualty loss on a tax return. Finally, the type of FEMA designation usually determines the type of relief, either administrative relief or tax relief or both, that is available to disaster victims. We'll be going over to each of these points in more detail as the presentation goes on as they can be quite confusing. FALKENSTEIN: Joe, I have a quick question. MCCARTHY: Sure. FALKENSTEIN: For the purposes of today's presentation, what is a disaster area? MCCARTHY: Well, a disaster area is any area determined by the President of the United States to warrant assistance by the federal government under the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act. FALKENSTEIN: Thanks. Now, here's another one, so how would you find out if a weather-related event is designated a federally declared disaster area? MCCARTHY: Great question, Anna. A federally declared disaster area is, they're posted to this FEMA website, that's www.FEMA.gov and some are posted to the IRS website. However, it's very important to know that not all federally declared disasters are posted on the IRS website, and in a few slides, I'll show you why. Now, before we discuss administrative relief in detail, I'd just like to point out to the tax professionals attending the webinar on most slides, you'll see references to the Internal Revenue Code, Internal Revenue Regulations, the IRS Revenue Rulings, IRS Revenue Procedures, and other sites. These sites are provided so you can go right to the source of information if you'd like to obtain more detailed information on the topic that's being discussed on that particular slide. Okay, on this slide, you can see the different types of administrative relief that can be made available for federally declared disasters. An administrative relief is granted by the IRS in geographic locations designated by the President as federally declared disaster areas and when FEMA designates an area to receive individual assistance. We'll talk more about FEMA individual assistance program later in the presentation. Anyway, when this happens, the IRS may grant additional time to file tax returns and pay taxes. The types of administrative relief are: granting an additional time to file certain types of tax returns like Forms 1040, 1120 or 1065; granting additional time to pay certain taxes like estimated taxes; and granting additional time to perform time sensitive acts such as making contributions to qualified retirement plans, filing a petition with the tax court or filing a claim or credit for a refund of any tax. And also give the IRS the ability to waive or abate interest and penalties or both for both late filing and late payment penalties.

FALKENSTEIN: Joe, I've got a quick question for you, but before I do, I just want to mention that a few of our attendees say they're having a hard time hearing you. Can you speak up just a little bit? You said MCCARTHY: I will try. FALKENSTEIN: Okay. You said that administrative relief such as granting additional time to file tax returns, does that mean all returns are granted time or there are only specific ones? MCCARTHY: No. Generally, the granting of additional time to file tax returns does not apply to information returns in the W2, 1098, 1099 or 5, 4, 9, 8 series or for Forms 1042-S or 8027. FALKENSTEIN: Okay, and you also said that administrative relief granting additional time to pay certain types of taxes, I'm guessing that's not all taxes. Which ones would we be looking at? MCCARTHY: Okay. While the due dates for estimated taxes, tax payments may be extended, payments for taxes like employment taxes and excise taxes are still required to be paid on a timely basis even if the business is located in a disaster area. That said, it's important to note that the IRS may abate penalties on such late payments for affected taxpayers due to reasonable cause during and immediately following the disaster. Taxpayers whose specific disaster-related circumstances prevent them from making timely payments or deposits may seek penalty abatements on a case-by-case basis. FALKENSTEIN: So, the reason why the IRS provides administrative relief is to give the disaster victims a little more time to deal with the crisis at hand, and that allows the taxpayers to comply with their tax obligations at a later date, right? MCCARTHY: That's exactly right. Let's face it, when you're a victim of a flood or a hurricane or a tornado or a wildfire or a volcano flow, the first thing that goes through your mind is not, I have to file my tax return, or I have to pay my taxes.

No. You're thinking of really important things like where am I going to live, how am I going to eat, do I still have a job? As such, the IRS wants to give taxpayers in federally declared disaster areas additional time to file and pay their taxes. The IRS issues a press release outlining what forms qualify for delayed filing and what taxes qualify for delayed payment and how much additional time will be granted to file those returns and to make those tax payments.

Another type of administrative relief offered by the IRS is the waiving of fees for obtaining copies of tax returns and expediting handling of requests for copies of tax returns or tax return transcripts. Copies of actual tax returns cost $50 and can take weeks to obtain. Those $50 fees are waived, and the requests are expedited. Now, in order to get fees waved and request expedited, you should write the applicable disaster title information, including the disaster number in red at the top of the Form 4506 which is the request for a copy of a tax return or Form 4506-T, which is a request for a transcript of a tax return. And both forms are available on the IRS website. FALKENSTEIN: That's great that the Forms 4506 and 4506-T are on the website.

And copies of tax returns and tax transcripts, they can be obtained at either an IRS Tax Assistance Center, but you do have to get an appointment, or they can request it by phone, by mail or through a tax preparer who has qualified to use the Transcript Delivery Service through IRS e-Services. Now, just so you know, the IRS does maintain a listing of zip codes that are located in federally declared disaster areas. So only the Forms 4506 and 4506-T that are filed with those zip codes can have those fees waved. HENRIE-BROWN: Anna, forgive me for interrupting, but since you and Joe have covered a lot of information, this may be a good time to have our first polling question. FALKENSTEIN: That sounds good to me. HENRIE-BROWN: Thanks, Anna. Okay, everyone. So here is our first polling question. And it is, what are the different types of administrative relief? Is it A, granting additional time to file tax return; B, granting additional time to pay tax return; C, granting additional time to perform certain other time sensitive acts; D, waiving or abating interest and late filing or late payment penalties or E, all of the above? So please click the radio button you think is the correct response.

And remember, if you do not get the pop-up box for responding the polling question, please enter your response using the "Ask Question" feature so we can track your participation. I'll read the question again, what are the different types of administrative relief? A, granting additional time to file tax return; B, granting additional time to pay tax return; C, granting additional time to perform certain other time sensitive acts; D, waiving or abating interest in late filing or late payment penalty or, E, all of the above? We'll give you a few more seconds to mark your selection. Okay. We're going to stop the polling now. And we'll share the correct answer on the next slide. Ah! And the correct response is E, all of the above. What are the different types of administrative relief? Granting additional time to file tax return, pay taxes, perform certain other time sensitive acts, and waiving or abating interest and late filing or late payment penalties. So, let's see how well you did on this question, 95 percent of you got it correct. Fantastic! OK. So, Joe, can you address who is eligible for these types of administrative relief? MCCARTHY: I certainly can, Jennifer. These types of administrative relief are available only to affected taxpayers. An affected taxpayer is generally any individual whose principal residence is located in a disaster area, the spouse of an affected taxpayer when filing a joint return, or any business entity or sole proprietorship whose principle business, principle place of business is located in a disaster area. In addition, an affected taxpayer is any individual, business entity or sole proprietorship not located in the disaster area but whose records are located in the disaster area. Now, there are a few more categories of who is an affected taxpayer, which can be found in the regulations cited at the bottom of the slide. But these are the main ones. But it is important to remember that you don't have to live in a federally declared disaster area in order to be an affected taxpayer. If you or your spouse lives in a federally declared disaster area assuming you file a joint return or if you are a taxpayer and who's not located in disaster area but whose records are, you can qualify as an affected taxpayer. FALKENSTEIN: Okay, Joe, remind me again, what does being an affected taxpayer actually do for the individual taxpayer? MCCARTHY: Okay. Being an affected taxpayer means that the individual can qualify for any of the administrative relief provisions we previously discussed, like granting additional time to file certain types of tax returns and paying certain types of taxes. And let me repeat that because it's so important. Being an affected taxpayer means that an individual can qualify for any administrative relief provisions like being granted additional time to file tax returns, pay taxes or perform other time-sensitive tasks. Jennifer, I know you just had a polling question, but I think it's a great time for our next polling question. HENRIE-BROWN: I agree, Joe. Okay. So, our second polling question is a true or false question. And here it is. You do not have to live in an affected disaster area to be considered an affected taxpayer. Is this statement true or is it false?

Please click the radio button you believe is the correct response. I'll repeat the question, you do not have to live in an affected disaster area to be considered an affected taxpayer. Is this statement true or is it false? We'll give you a few more seconds to respond. Okay. We will stop the polling now and we'll share the correct response on the next slide. Ah! And, the correct response is true. For purposes of claiming the disaster loss, you do not have to live in the affected disaster area, if your record were stored in the affected disaster area. So, let's see, let's see the results of how you did. And going up, 96 percent. My goodness, we're going up.

We're going to get 100 pretty soon. This is great. Okay. So, Joe and Anna? What's next? Let's move on. MCCARTHY: Okay. Now, we're getting into a topic that can be a bit confusing because it deals with both FEMA and the IRS, so bear with me. When the President declares a federal disaster, FEMA determines what counties or if you're in Louisiana, parishes make up a disaster area.

FEMA also determines what types of assistance they'll offer in the disaster area. FEMA assistance can come in one of three forms; public assistance, individual assistance or a combination of individual and public assistance. FALKENSTEIN: All right, Joe, so what's the difference between public assistance and individual assistance? MCCARTHY: Well, Anna, FEMA public assistance is when FEMA provides grants to state and local governments for items like debris removal, preparing roads and bridges and public buildings and public utilities. On the other hand, FEMA individual assistance is when FEMA provides grants to individuals for items like temporary housing, housing repair and replacement as well as funeral expenses, just to name a few. FALKENSTEIN: So, what difference does it make if FEMA grants public assistance, individual assistance or both? What has that got to do with the IRS and individual taxpayers? MCCARTHY: Great questions. On the next slide, we're going to explain what types of assistance FEMA provides and how the types of assistance have tax implications for individual taxpayers.

FALKENSTEIN: All right, Joe. It's the next slide, so tell us why is that the type of assistance designated by FEMA so important? MCCARTHY: Well, Anna, because the type of assistance designated by FEMA dictates the type of relief offered by the IRS. Now, we just talked a lot about administrative relief. Well, if you look at the chart, you'll see that if FEMA designates an area to receive public assistance only, that area will not usually qualify for administrative relief. So, areas that receive only public assistance will usually not be granted extra time to file tax return, pay taxes, or perform other time-sensitive acts. FALKENSTEIN: So, looking at the chart, administrative relief is only granted when FEMA designates an area to receive individual or individual and public relief, is that right? MCCARTHY: That is correct. Any time FEMA designates an area to receive individual or individual and public relief, the IRS will grant administrative relief. FALKENSTEIN: That's good to know. All right, tell me how can taxpayers tell if the IRS has provided administrative relief? MCCARTHY: Well, like I said before, when FEMA grants individual assistance or individual and public assistance, the IRS will put out a press release outlining the specific types of administrative relief being granted like postponed due dates for tax returns and payment deadlines. These press releases are available on the IRS website. FALKENSTEIN: Now, if I'm reading the chart correctly, when it comes to tax relief, which means claiming casualty losses, any time taxpayers are in a federally declared disaster area that receives any type of FEMA assistance, they can qualify for tax relief. And that means they can deduct qualifying casualty losses on their tax return. It doesn't matter what type of FEMA assistance is being offered, whether it's public assistance only, individual and public assistance, or individual assistance only. So basically, any type of FEMA assistance enables taxpayers in a disaster area to claim the qualified casualty losses on their tax return, is that right? MCCARTHY: You're right. When FEMA grants any type of assistance in a disaster area, taxpayers in that disaster area can claim qualified casualty losses on their tax returns.

Now, always make sure to check the FEMA website to see if a county or if you're in Louisiana a specific parish is part of the federally declared disaster area. If it is, then taxpayers in those counties or parishes are able to claim qualified casualty losses on their tax returns.

But don't stop there, check to see if FEMA provides individual or individual and public relief, if so, taxpayers in those counties or parishes will likely qualify for administrative relief as well. Check the IRS website. There're specific types of administrative relief being offered.

And again, check the FEMA website for federal disaster declarations and check the IRS website for any types of administrative relief being provided. Anna, I think we have an example of a FEMA disaster map to share with the audience, am I right? FALKENSTEIN: You must have read my mind, Joe. So here is a map and it is an example of a FEMA disaster map. Now, if you look at this map of Alabama, you can see that the map is coded in three different colors. Now, each covers a specific county. And if you look to the side bar, you will see that each of these colors represents different FEMA disaster declaration classification. So, let's go through each of them one at a time. The white areas on the map are counties not designated by FEMA as federally declared disaster areas. The counties in white would generally not receive any type of administrative disaster relief, for example, late filing of tax returns or late payment of taxes.

However, individual taxpayers in the counties in white might be able to deduct casualty losses on their tax return if the losses are attributable to a federally declared disaster. MCCARTHY: The gold and yellow areas on the map are designated by FEMA to receive public assistance only.

As such, they will qualify for tax relief like claiming casualty losses on a tax return; however, they would generally not qualify for administrative relief, for example being granted additional time for filing of tax returns or additional time to pay taxes. The brown areas on the map are counties designated by FEMA to receive individual and public assistance. As such, they would qualify for both administrative relief and tax relief, so they would be able to claim casualty losses on their tax returns and in addition they would receive administrative relief including such things as being given additional time for the filing, have certain tax returns, paying certain taxes, and to perform other time sensitive tasks as we previously discussed. The IRS would issue a disaster relief press, I'm sorry, disaster press release outlining these specific administrative types of administrative relief that are being made available to taxpayers in those designated counties. FALKENSTEIN: Okay, Joe. So, you're telling me that the type of FEMA designation impacts the types of relief that a taxpayer can qualify for. MCCARTHY: That is correct. So, to recap, a taxpayer does not have to be in a federally declared disaster area in order to claim a casualty loss. However, and this is a big however, the casualty must be attributable to a federally declared disaster and be located in the state where the disaster is declared. That said, FEMA is usually pretty generous when designated disaster areas, so most casualty losses will be located within a federally declared disaster like the brown and the gold counties designated as disaster areas in the FEMA map being shown on the screen. In any case, having insurance coverage or rather should I say adequate insurance coverage is still extremely important. It's also extremely important to remember that these rules apply to individual taxpayers. Business taxpayers are subject to a separate set of rules.

Let's go to our next polling question. HENRIE-BROWN: Sounds good to me, Joe. Okay. Our third polling question is, when is administrative relief usually granted? So, which is the best response? Is it, A, when FEMA designates an area to receive individual assistance; B, when FEMA designates an area to receive individual and public assistance; C, when FEMA designates an area to receive public assistance, or D, which is A and B? Please click the radio button you believe is the best answer. And remember, if you don't get that pop-up box for responding to our polling questions, just go ahead and enter your response using the "Ask Question" feature. I'll read the question again. When is administrative relief usually granted? Is it A, when FEMA designates an area to receive individual assistance or, B, when FEMA designates an area to receive individual and public assistance; C, when FEMA designates an area to receive public assistance or D, which is both A and B? We'll give you just a few more seconds to respond. Okay.

We're going to stop the polling now. And we'll share the best answer on the next slide. And the best response is D, when is administrative relief usually granted? It is granted when FEMA designates an area to receive individual assistance or when FEMA designates an area to receive individual and public assistance. Okay. So, let's see if you're still going to hold up to that outstanding record that you've been doing as far as polling questions. Let's hope, 85 percent, not bad but it's going down. Okay. But hey, that's a B plus, so I'm happy. FALKENSTEIN: [Laughter] Okay, Jennifer. Before we go on, I do want to share something else with our audience. HENRIE-BROWN: Sure. FALKENSTEIN: All notices that the IRS, when the IRS grants administrative relief to federally declared disaster areas, all those notices are posted to the IRS website. So, all you have to do is type in the search word, disaster, in the homepage and follow the links to what counties or parishes in a particular state are being granted administrative relief. Now, in the previous slides, we, we've been mentioning casualty losses, Joe what exactly is a casualty?

MCCARTHY: Anna, that's a great question as it gets right to the heart of one of the main issues we're discussing today. A casualty is the damage, destruction or loss of property resulting from an identifiable event that is sudden, unexpected and unusual. Let's talk about what sudden, unexpected and unusual mean. The term sudden means swift, not gradual or progressive. The term unexpected means ordinarily unanticipated and unintended. And the term unusual means not a day-to-day occurrence and not typical of the activity in which you are engaged. The terms sudden, unexpected, and unusual are used to describe the characteristics of a casualty and were established through various revenue rulings in court cases. The primary revenue ruling at which these definitions are based is shown on the slide. Recently, casualties have occurred in disaster areas that have suffered hurricanes, wildfires, tornadoes and volcano flows and recently floods. These weather-related events have been determined to be sudden, unexpected and unusual and therefore the damage, destruction or loss of property resulting from them meet the definition of a casualty. FALKENSTEIN: Joe, I have another question for you.

MCCARTHY: Sure. FALKENSTEIN: So how would a taxpayer go about computing a casualty loss?

MCCARTHY: Well, a casualty loss is limited to the lesser of the adjusted basis before disaster or the decrease in the fair market value as a result of the disaster, decreased by any insurance or other reimbursements. Now, there are a few other things you have to remember when it comes to loss reimbursements. If in the year of the casualty there is a claim for reimbursement and there is a reasonable prospect of recovery no portion of the loss that may be reimbursed is allowed.

You must reduce your loss even if you do not receive the payment until a later tax year. If your property is covered by insurance, you must file a timely insurance claim for reimbursements of your loss, otherwise you cannot deduct any reimbursed portion of a casualty. The portion of the loss usually not covered by insurance, for example, a deductible, is not subject to this rule. Now there are two methods of determining the amount of a decrease in the fair market value outlined in the Treasury regulations. The first method is by competent appraisal. This appraisal must recognize the effects of any general market decline affecting undamaged as well as damaged property which may occur simultaneously with the casualty in order that any deduction under this section shall be applied to the actual loss resulting from damage to the property.

FALKENSTEIN: Okay. I think we need to look at the second method now. The, the cost of repairs to the property that's damaged is also acceptable as evidence of loss of value. So if the taxpayer shows that the repairs are necessary to restore the property to its condition immediately before the casualty, or the amounts spent for such repairs is not excessive, and the repairs do not cost more than the damage that was suffered, and the value of the property after the repairs does not result, and of the repairs, exceeding the value of the property immediately before the casualty, that's a lot. But either method is acceptable for determining the decrease in fair market value. Now when you are using either method, the loss is limited to the adjusted basis in the property. Joe, do you know of any other limitations? MCCARTHY: Funny you should ask. There are some additional limitations on deducting casualty losses on your tax return. First, you have to itemize your deductions. If you don't itemize your deductions, you generally can't deduct casualty losses on your tax return. Assuming you do itemize your deductions, your casualty loss would have to be larger than $100 and would have to exceed more than 10 percent of your adjusted gross income in order to derive any tax benefit from claiming the loss. FALKENSTEIN: All right, Joe. It looks like there are a number of qualifiers, all of which must be met in order for an individual to claim a casualty loss. And let's go through a few of these here. Number one, it has to be attributable to a federally declared disaster area. Number two, the taxpayer must have suffered a casualty loss. Number three, the taxpayers must itemize their deductions. And number four, last but not least, the casualty loss must be larger than $100 and exceed 10 percent of the individual's adjusted gross income. Do you have anything else to add? MCCARTHY: Yes, I do. I just want to reiterate that all these qualifiers must be met in order for an individual to claim a casualty loss on their tax return. But remember and this is very important, all these qualifiers do not apply to business casualty losses. The business casualty losses, all the business has to do is suffer a qualify casualty. The business does not have to be in a federally declared disaster area. In addition, a business casualty loss would not be deducted as an itemized deduction or be subject to the $100 and 10 percent of adjusted gross income rules. Anna, why don't you give us an example showing how to compute a casualty loss?

FALKENSTEIN: Okay. I can do that. So, let's say in this example, 2018 and a hurricane has now destroyed your home in Florida. The President declared that a major disaster exists in the State of Florida due to that hurricane. The home cost $144,800 when you bought it several years ago. This is your only casualty loss for the year. The fair market value of the home immediately before the disaster was $180,000, but unfortunately the fair market value immediately after the disaster is $35,000, which is basically the value of the land. So, the loss is $144,800, which is the lesser of the adjusted basis of the property or the decrease in fair market value. So, this loss is before you start accounting for your insurance reimbursement. So again, we had that $144,800 loss which is the lesser of the adjusted basis of property or the decrease in fair market value before the insurance reimbursement. Now you collect $130,000 from your insurance company, which is going to reduce your loss. Then your loss is further reduced by $100 and 10 percent of your adjusted gross income which this year was $80,000. This means that your deductible casualty loss is $6,700 which is deducted as an itemized deduction on your tax return. Now we want you to know that this example is actually pulled straight from Publication 547. We may have changed some of the scenario a little bit, but the dollars are the same. So that's Publication 547, Casualties, Disasters, and Theft. And we encourage you to go in and take a look at that and the other examples. Okay, once you have claimed the casualty loss, are you done, Joe? MCCARTHY: Not quite. If you claim a casualty loss you must adjust your basis in the property. To do so you would decrease the basis in the property by any insurance or other reimbursement you might receive, and by any deductible loss.

You would also increase your basis in the property by the amount you spend on repairs that substantially prolong the life of the property, increase its value or adapt it to a different use. To make this determination compare the repaired property to the property before the casualty. MCCARTHY: Now we are going to discuss some safe harbor provisions. FALKENSTEIN: Before we go over the safe harbor provisions, could you answer a real quick question? MCCARTHY: Sure. FALKENSTEIN: What exactly is a safe harbor provision? MCCARTHY: That a good question. A safe harbor provision is an exception to a general rule. With these different safe harbor provisions, you don't have to use the normal method for determining the decrease in the fair market value which we discussed in the previous slides. Rather, you can use one of these provisions to determine the decrease in fair market value. The safe harbor provisions on the screen now apply only to personal use residential real property. And I want to remind you that the safe harbor provision we are about to discuss do not apply to business casualty losses. The different safe harbor methods for determining the decrease in the fair market value for personal use residential real property are the estimated repair costs method, the de minimis method, the insurance method, the contractor safe harbor method, and the disaster loan appraisal method. We will go over each of these safe harbor methods in the following slides. FALKENSTEIN: Before we do that, can you tell us what the significance of each of these safe harbors are? What do they do? What do they actually do for the taxpayer? MCCARTHY: Sure. Let me go back to the computing a casualty loss slide and I'll explain. Okay. Remember when we were discussing that a casualty loss was the lesser of the decrease in the fair market value as a result of a casualty, or that the adjusted basis before the casualty? Well safe harbors are an alternative method for computing the decrease in the fair market value as a result of the casualty. This is one of the factors in computing a casualty loss. And it's the first factor on this slide that is highlighted in yellow. FALKENSTEIN: Great, thanks. MCCARTHY: Okay. Let's talk about the estimated repair costs safe harbor method. The estimated repair cost safe harbor method allows you to figure the decrease in the fair market value of your personal use residential real property using the lesser of two repair estimates prepared by separate and independent licensed contractors.

The estimates must detail the itemized costs to restore your property to the condition immediately before the casualty. The estimated repair cost safe harbor method is limited to casualty losses of $20,000 or less. This safe harbor is available for personal use residential real property only and the property must be located in a federally declared disaster area.

FALKENSTEIN: All right. Let's continue on with the de minimis method. The de minimis safe harbor method allows you to figure the decrease in the fair market value of your personal use residential real property based on a written good faith estimate of the cost of repairs required to restore your property to its condition. And that condition was immediately before the casualty. You must keep your documentation showing how you estimated the amount of your loss.

The de minimis method, safe harbor method, that's only available for casualty losses of $5,000 or less. MCCARTHY: Next up is the insurance safe harbor method. The insurance safe harbor method allows you to figure the decrease in the fair market value of your personal use residential real property based on the estimated loss in the reports prepared by your homeowners or flood insurance company. These reports must set forth the estimated loss you have sustained on the damage or the destruction of your property. FALKENSTEIN: All right. On to the contractor's safe harbor method. Now under the contractor's safe harbor method you may use the contract price with the repairs that are specified in a contract prepared by an independent and licensed contractor. And that will help you determine the decrease in the fair market value of your personal use residential real property. This safe harbor method doesn't apply unless you are subject to a binding contract signed by you and the contractor setting forth the itemized costs that will restore your personal use residential real property to its condition immediately before the casualty. MCCARTHY: Now finally, we're going to talk about the disaster loan appraisal method. Under the disaster loan appraisal safe harbor method, you may use an appraised, an appraisal prepared to obtain a federal loan or federal loan guarantee that identifies your estimated loss from a federally declared disaster, to determine the decrease in the fair market value of your personal use residential real property. And just like all the other safe harbor provisions this safe harbor provision is available only for personal use residential real property and the property must be located in a federally declared disaster area. FALKENSTEIN: On this slide, we are still discussing safe harbor, but now we've got a little twist. These safe harbors are for personal belongings. First, the de minimis method, under the de minimis method you can make a good faith written estimate of the decrease in the fair market value of your personal belongings. You must maintain records describing your affected personal belongings, as well as your methodology for estimating your loss. And this method is limited to losses of $5,000 or less. Finally, we have the replacement cost safe harbor method. To use the replacement cost safe harbor method, you must first determine the current cost to replace your personal belongings with new ones. And then reduce that amount by 10 percent for each year you may have owned the personal belonging. You can see the personal belongings valuation table in Revenue Procedure 2018-08. And if you choose to use the replacement cost safe harbor method, then you must use that method for all of your personal belongings with just a few exceptions.

The safe harbors are available for personal belongings that are located in a federally declared disaster area. So, note that each of the safe harbor methods we discussed are subject to additional rules and exceptions. And if you want more detailed information on those rules and exceptions, please go ahead and take a look at Revenue Procedure 2018-08. That can easily be found on the internet. Now we are going to switch topics. Here are some disaster-related payments that are not included in gross income. So right now, we are going to talk about disaster relief payments. Qualified disaster relief payments are not included in gross income to the extent that any payment is not compensated for by insurance or otherwise. So, if the taxpayer receives a qualified disaster relief payment and does not receive any insurance or other reimbursement for qualified related expenses the relief payment then is not included in your gross income. MCCARTHY: There are three different types of qualified disaster relief payments. The first type for disaster relief payments are payments to reimburse or pay reasonable and necessary personal, family, living or funereal expenses incurred as a result of a qualified disaster, also known as a federally declared disaster. So, these types of payments are excluded from gross income. For example, if a taxpayer's home is completely destroyed by a tornado and they receive funds which don't include insurance proceeds to put them up temporarily in a hotel, those payments would not be includable in income. FALKENSTEIN: Now the second type of disaster relief payment or payments incurred for repair or rehabilitation of a personal residence or repair replacement of its content, to the extent that the need of such repair, rehabilitation or replacement is attributable to the qualified disaster. So, assuming that a taxpayer does not receive any insurance or other reimbursement for the expenses, the payments would be excluded from gross income. For example, if a taxpayer did not have flood insurance for their home, but they received funds to help replace a carpet or dry wall of a flooded home, then those funds would be excluded from income. MCCARTHY: Finally, disaster relief payments or grants made by the federal, or state, or local government or agency related to a federal disaster which are based upon need are excluded from gross income. Two other items not shown on the screen are payments made by charitable organizations or employers. These payments may also be excluded from gross income. And if you want to get more information on that, you would have to see Revenue Ruling 2003-12. For more on this topic, and again, that's Revenue Ruling 2003-12 for more information on that. FALKENSTEIN: Thanks, Joe. I do want to remind people that there is no double benefit related to qualified disaster relief payments that are allowed. That means that you can't have a deduction or a credit that would be allowed to the extent of the amount of any qualified disaster relief payments that are excluded from income. Remember, excluding qualified disaster relief payments under income or from your income apply only to individuals.

These exclusions from income do not apply to businesses and their casualty losses. MCCARTHY: Okay. We discussed tax treatment for qualified disaster relief payments, now we are going to discuss qualified disaster mitigation payments. Now, I know relief payments and mitigation payments sound like they are the same thing, but they are different. Qualified disaster mitigation payments are any amount which is paid pursuant to the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief Act or the National Flood Insurance Act to or for the benefit of an owner of any property for hazard mitigation. Let's look at some examples of qualified disaster mitigation payments to highlight what these payments are, and their tax treatment. FALKENSTEIN: The qualified disaster mitigation payments are payments that are made by FEMA to taxpayers under the FEMA Disaster Mitigation Program and they include the Flood Mitigation Assistance Program which provides funding to protect life and property from repetitive future natural disasters. We also have the Hazard Mitigation Grant Program. And that provides post-disaster funding to protect, again, life and property from future natural disasters. These are payments that individual property owners receive from FEMA to reduce the risk of future damage to their property.

Qualified disaster mitigation payments are excluded from gross income. Now in addition, qualified disaster mitigation payments do not increase the basis in property or expenditures made with respect to those payments. So, no deduction or credit is allowed related to qualified disaster mitigation payments. However, just like qualified disaster relief payments, no double benefit related to the qualified disaster mitigation payments are allowed. MCCARTHY: On this slide we will discuss the tax treatment of gains on unscheduled personal property. No gain is recognized on any insurance proceeds received for unscheduled personal property that was part of the contents of a main home. An unscheduled property and insurance payment is the lump sum insurance reimbursement received from the contents from a home or apartment that was involved in a disaster. Usually an insurance company will list in the policy what types of properties must be scheduled such as high value jewelry or high-end computer systems, but other household items are classified as unscheduled. This income exclusion applies to both homeowners and renters who receive insurance proceeds from damaged or destroyed property in a home or apartment as a result of a federally declared disaster. So, taxpayers who receive insurance payments or reimbursements for unscheduled property, no gain is recognized on that property. FALKENSTEIN: Joe, real quick, can you give us some examples of unscheduled property? MCCARTHY: Sure, Anna. Examples of unscheduled property would include clothes, bedding, small electronics, sports equipment and jewelry of minimal value like costume jewelry. They would all be examples of unscheduled property. So, let's say the insurance company gives you a $100 for a TV that might actually have been worth $75. No gain is recognized on that TV. That's what this provision means. Also, payments for temporary living expenses received by an insured individual directly from FEMA and that's the key, the payment, payments for temporary living expenses have to be directly from FEMA, are also excluded from gross income. The next tax provision we are going to discuss falls under Internal Revenue Code Section 165. Again, that's 165. Taxpayers may elect to deduct a casualty loss that occurred in the current year on their preceding year tax return, if the casualty loss occurred in a disaster area, and was attributable to a federally declared disaster, so taxpayers may be looking to you, their tax professional to determine whether you should claim any 2018 disaster-related casualty losses under 2018 or 2017 tax year return. FALKENSTEIN: So, remember, this provision only applies in cases where there is, one, federally declared disaster, meaning that the disaster subsequently was determined by the President of the United States to warrant assistance by the federal government under the Robert G. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act. And two, the casualty loss that occurred within the disaster area and was attributable to the federally declared disaster. MCCARTHY: So, on this slide where it states that a federally declared disaster that warrants assistance can take the casualty in a prior year, it means that any type of assistance designated by FEMA would qualify the taxpayer to make the election to deduct a casualty loss in the prior year. FALKENSTEIN: That's right, Joe. It doesn't matter if FEMA provides public assistance, public and individual assistance or just individual assistance, the taxpayer would qualify to make an election to deduct the casualty loss in the prior year. MCCARTHY: That's right. Now we've looked at Internal Revenue Code Section 165, now let's discuss Revenue Procedure 2016-53. Revenue Procedure 2016-53 outlines the procedures and the requirements on how to make the election to deduct casualty losses in the year prior to the loss. But remember, the election to deduct the casualty loss in the year prior to the casualty is available only for casualty losses attributable to and located in a federally declared disaster area only. FALKENSTEIN: Now, in order to make this election, a taxpayer must include with the original federal tax return or an amended federal tax return an election statement indicating that the taxpayer is making a Section 165(i) election. And the election statement must contain the following information. First, the name or a description of the disaster and dates or date of the disaster which gave rise to the loss, also the address including whether it's a city, town, county, parish, as well as the state and zip code where the damaged or destroyed property was located at the time of the disaster. And you will also need to include the FEMA declaration number, which you can find on the FEMA website. MCCARTHY: The election to claim disaster losses on the preceding tax year can be made up to six months after the due date of the taxpayer's federal income tax return, for the year the disaster, for the year of the disaster without any regard to the extension of time to file. So, for example, if a casualty loss occurred in 2018, the taxpayer has the option to claim a casualty loss on either their 2018 or the 2017 tax return. If the taxpayer elects to claim the 2018 casualty loss on their 2017 tax return, they would have to file a Form 1040X on or before October 16th, 2019.

FALKENSTEIN: And also, even though it rarely happens, taxpayers may revoke the election on or before that date that is 90 days after the due date for making the election. We encourage you to look at Revenue Procedure 2016-53 for more on that topic. HENRIE-BROWN: Great. Anna, excuse me for interrupting, but before we go any further, let's have our fourth and final polling question. And this is a yes or no question. If a taxpayer suffers a qualifying casualty loss attributable to a federally declared disaster in 2018, can the taxpayer amend 2017 tax return if it results in a larger tax benefit? Is this, the answer to this question yes, they can amend 2017 or no? Please click the radio button you believe is the correct response. I'll repeat the question. If the taxpayer suffers a qualifying casualty loss attributable to a federally declared disaster in 2018, can the taxpayer amend their 2017 tax return if it results in a larger tax benefit? Is the answer to this question yes or no? And we'll give you a few more seconds to respond. Okay. We're going to stop the polling now. And we'll share the correct response on the next slide. And the correct answer is yes. Taxpayers that suffer a qualifying casualty loss attributable to a federally declared disaster in 2018 can go back and amend their 2017 tax return claiming the casualty loss in the prior, meaning 2017, year if it results in a larger tax benefit. So, let's see how many of you got this right. All right. Ninety-one percent. Great. We're back in the A range. So, Joe and Anna, do you have anything else you'd like to add? MCCARTHY: Yes, Jennifer, I do. Claiming a 2018 casualty loss on a 2017 tax return may be particularly beneficial as the standard deduction increased significantly in 2018.

As a result, some taxpayers may obtain a greater tax benefit by amending their 2017 tax return in order to claim a 2018 qualifying disaster-related casualty loss. So, practitioners who have clients that fit into this fact pattern might want to take a closer look at Revenue Procedure 2016-53, again, that's Revenue Procedure 2016-53. Okay. Let's move on to a different topic.

How to document a casualty loss. The following slides review the documentation needed to support a casualty loss claim. This slide covers some of the general information needed in order to document a casualty loss in a federally-declared disaster area. Some of the records necessary to document the loss have been destroyed in a disaster. The next few slides will provide some suggestions on reconstructing records that you may need in the event you're asked to document your loss. Further, documentation to support a casualty loss claim will likely be needed.

This added documentation will depend on the type asset involved and so some general information you would need would include the type of casualty like fire, storm, et cetera, when it occurred, documentation showing the casualty Auto loss was attributable to a federally-declared disaster, and that you were the owner of the property or if you're a lessee that you are contractually liable for the damage. Anna, can you give us some examples on how to document type different types casualty losses? FALKENSTEIN: Sure. So, let's start with documenting a casualty loss claim related to residential real property, even where some of the records may have been lost due to the disaster. First, we encourage you to take photographs as quickly as possible after the event to establish the extent of damage. You may want to see if there's any picture that exists showing the property before the damage occurred. Contact your title company or a bank that may have handled the purchase for copies of escrow papers. But probably the best way of documenting losses is by taking a video of your home both inside and out with a cell phone. MCCARTHY: Now, we're not saying you should run outside in the middle of a tornado or a volcano eruption to make a video of your home. Don't do it. FALKENSTEIN: No, don't do that. [Laughter] But there are some cases where you may have a couple days notice, like when you know that a hurricane is coming in your direction. Making a video while walking around your house before the disaster strikes and then making another video after the disaster, that may provide some of the best loss documentation that you could get for tax purposes and also for insurance purposes. MCCARTHY: You can also document a casualty loss by using an appraiser. Let's look at this a little closer. The fair market value of real property both before and after can be documented by an appraiser. As a possible alternative, check with local real estate companies for a list of comparable sales to determine the fair market value of comparable properties within the same neighborhood. Also, the insurance adjusters' reports can be a good source of information for documenting the extent and damage to the property. Some adjusters' reports will provide dimensions or floor plan of a residence or other buildings and how much it would cost to replace.

If contractors were used to improve the property in the past, contact those contractors for any records that might assist you in determining the basis of the property. FALKENSTEIN: So now, let's look at some additional ways to document casualty losses. You may be able to check with your county, town, city, or parish assessor's office for records on the property. You may be able to get a copy of a deed for the property and also for inherited property, you may be able to check the court records for probate value. These records should help in determining your basis in the property. For more information on computing basis, we ask that you refer to Publication 547, Casualties and Disasters. Again, that's Publication 547. Also, you can input the word "reconstructing" into the word search box on the IRS website for a more detailed description and information on reconstructing records. Joe are there any other ways to document casualty losses? MCCARTHY: Yes, there are a few more. When reconstructing records to document casualty losses for personal property, taxpayers can make a diagram or floor plan of the home that suffered the casualty and note where objects in the home were placed. For example, furniture, electronics, clothes, tools, and other personal items. Pictures are also a good way of documenting the contents of your home. And as we previously stated, if you take a video with your cell phone, that would be great. Just walk through each room of the house while making the video. This is one of the best and simplest ways of documenting what you have in the house.

Now, I know that making a video of your house is the first thing that goes through your mind when a disaster is about to strike, but before and after videos of damaged property is an excellent way of providing documentary evidence of your losses. You can reconstruct records from original cost invoices or old sales catalogs. Fair market value can be determined through local thrift stores, local newspapers, and perhaps the library. Documenting household items is made easier if photographs or, as I previously stated, videos of the contents of your home can be located. For example, photographs of furniture, televisions, jewelry, computers, and other electronic devices as well as appliances, clothing, jewelry, et cetera. Photos are an excellent way of documenting items that were lost in the disaster. Hey, Anna, did you know that disaster damage does not always result in casualty loss? FALKENSTEIN: I did know that, Joe. On rare occasions, disaster-related casualties do result in a gain. I know that sounds odd, but it does happen.

Gains on casualties happen taxpayers receive insurance payments or other reimbursements that are in excess of the adjusted basis of the property that was damaged or destroyed in a disaster.

The formula for computing a gain on a casualty is as follows, insurance or other proceeds that were received less the adjusted basis of the asset equals the gain from the casualty. So, a gain is possible if the insurance or other total reimbursement is greater than the adjusted basis of property. Reimbursements may include any amount used to pay off an existing mortgage or other lien against the property. And in certain circumstances, gain may be postponed under the involuntary conversion provisions of Internal Revenue Code Section 1033, again, that's Internal Revenue Code Section 1033. Like I said, gains on casualties are rare, but they do exist. So, we just wanted you to be aware of that possibility. MCCARTHY: Now, if a taxpayer receives an insurance reimbursement after deducting a casualty loss and if that reimbursement is less than expected, and accounted for as a casualty loss, include the difference as loss on the tax return for the year which you can reasonably say you're not going to receive any more insurance reimbursements. FALKENSTEIN: And if a taxpayer later receives more of an insurance reimbursement than they expected after they've already claimed a deduction for the deduction casualty loss, they may have to include the extra reimbursement as income for the year they received it. However, if any part of the original deduction did not reduce their tax for the earlier year, do not include that part of the reimbursement in income. Also, do not refigure your tax for the year that you claimed the deduction. Refer to "recovery" in IRS Publication 525 titled "Taxable and Non-taxable Income" to determine how much extra reimbursement that you may have to include in your income. Joe, I'm going to let you elaborate a little bit on that.

MCCARTHY: Okay. Thanks, Anna. If a taxpayer has more deductions than income for the year, he or she may have a net operating loss or NOL. Generally, in computing a net operating loss for an individual deductions are not, are not attributable, that are not attributable to an individual trade or business are allowed only to the extent of income not derived from the trade or business. However, any personal casualty loss for the year that is allowable under the deduction, I'm sorry, as a deduction under Internal Revenue Code Section 165(c)(2) or (3) is treated as attributable to a trade or business in determining the amount of the net operating loss for that year. As a result of this treatment and unlike any other personal deductions an allowable deduction for a personal casualty loss can generate or increase an individual's taxpayer's net operating loss for the year. Now, switching topics, the FEMA website contains a wealth of information on disasters, a list of federally-declared disasters by state and county are provided on the FEMA website. A direct link is shown on the screen, but the disaster declarations are easy enough to find if you go to the FEMA website. As we discussed before, FEMA determines the level of relief provided for every federally-declared disaster area. FEMA can provide individual assistance, individual and public assistance or public assistance only.

And remember, this is important as it affects the type of relief taxpayers are entitled to.

IRS information on disaster areas can be found at www.IRS.gov/DisasterRelief. This is important in that when FEMA provides individual assistance, the IRS will generally grant administrative relief to those taxpayers in those areas receiving individual assistance or individual and public assistance. After certain disasters, the IRS may provide staffing at major disaster recovery centers. The IRS will hand out disaster publications, provide information on casualty loss determinations, assist with questions on tax laws and procedures, assist with records reconstruction, and assist in obtaining copies of tax returns. FALKENSTEIN: The IRS also has a wealth of information on the IRS website related to disasters. At the webpage shown on the screen here, you will find the launch page for the disaster information we've been talking about.

The topics will include the latest guidance for victims of disasters, preparing for disasters and help for disaster victims. It also has that disaster information specific to individuals and business. It's a great resource. We highly recommend it. With that, let's go on to review some of the other resources the IRS offers to victims of disasters and also tax professionals who deal with disaster-related issues. MCCARTHY: Some of the resources we discussed today are on screen now. There is the IRS disaster launch page we just talked about as well as IRS Publication 547, the disaster, the Casualty, Disaster and Thefts guide which is very handy in understanding disaster-related issues. Also, there is the IRS Publication 584, that's the Casualty, Disaster and Theft Loss Workbook which is designed to help you figure your loss on personal use property in the event of a disaster. IRS Publication 2194, the Disaster Resource Guide, which outlines various resources available to help individuals and businesses who are disaster victims as well as a handy chart to help you compute casualty losses. Also, there is Form 4684, that's the Casualties and Thefts form, which is used to compute the amount of a casualty loss and just as an FYI, the instructions to Form 4684 can be very helpful as well.

Other resources offered by the IRS are the IRS disaster hotline number, which is 866-562-5227.

And in addition, there is IRS Revenue Procedure 2018-8, which covers the safe harbors or alternative ways for determining the decrease in the fair market value when computing a casualty loss. And finally, Internal Revenue Code Section 165 and IRS Revenue Procedure 2016-53 which discussed claiming a casualty loss on the previous year's tax return. One last thing about the two items, two last items on this list. If you're having trouble sleeping at night, not to worry, take a gander at one of these, you'll be out cold in no time. Only trained professionals with years of experience are able to read this material and not pass out from induced boredom.

The rest of these resources, they're okay. Jennifer, with that, it's back to you.

HENRIE-BROWN: Thanks, Joe. Hello, hello again, everyone. This is Jennifer Henrie-Brown and I'll be the moderator for the Questions and Answers session. And joining our presenters for today's Q&;A session is Danny Smith, Senior Tax Analyst for IRS Disaster Assistance Emergency Relief Program. Danny works in our Small Business and Self-Employed Division Human Capital Office under the Continuity of Operation. Welcome, Danny. =And also joining us for the Q&;A session is Richard Furlong, who is a Senior Stakeholder Liaison. And like Anna, Joe, and I, Rich works with tax professionals and small business owners providing outreach and education and identifying ways the agency can be more responsive to customer needs. But before we begin the Q&;A session, I should mention that while we may not have time to answer all the questions submitted during today's web conference, we'll answer as many as time allows. Okay, everyone.

Danny, Richard, Joe, and Anna, we've received several questions. So, let's get started so we can get to as many as possible. And let me see. I'm going to start with Danny Smith, our subject matter expert. And we have a lot of questions trying to get clarification of what is a federally-declared disaster, Danny. And this question specifically asks if the state declared a disaster that the federal does not, can you still take the tax deduction on your federal return?

DANNY SMITH: Well, thank you, Jennifer, for that question and also for the person who asked it. And I'll kind of actually step back and face something that's just as an issue right now or today just in the last hour. FEMA has actually declared Nebraska, with the flooding that's going on there, a major disaster. The President, let me put it that way, has declared that the State of Nebraska is a major disaster and in that particular case, they have identified areas within the state that are going to have individual as well as individual and public assistance.

There's actually nine counties that have individual and public assistance with another 47 just having public assistance. And there's also several Indian tribes that are under the public assistance declaration. And the reason I wanted to kind of take it back to that. The way all of these work, you'll hear it take place time and time again when something like this occurs.

The State, the governor will come out and declare emergencies and actually ask the President to declare the state an emergency that's beyond their resources. And this particular event started on March 9th and it's taken until March 21st for the declaration to actually be made, so there's a time delay in how this normally works. And this was actually an expedited request by the governor from Nebraska. So, having said that, this is when FEMA actually makes, or the President makes the declaration and FEMA actually declares the individual counties, that's when something happens from the federal side, and that's when casualty losses as well as us having the administrative tax relief takes place. So, if it's only something that the state has done, it does not warrant our type of relief and there is no casualty that you can take. Now, I will say something from an accounting standpoint, it is possible that the state itself might provide something on their state return if they have state income tax. But from a federal standpoint, there would be nothing that the person would be able to take advantage of. MCCARTHY: And I just want to add to that and make people aware that FEMA can amend their declarations in the future. So just because they made a declaration today and outlined certain counties as receiving public assistance and/or individual assistance, sometimes they can add to that at a later date, you know, either add to the number of counties that are declared, federally declared disaster area or change or add types of assistance to that. That's it. HENRIE-BROWN: Wow, that was a lot of great information. SMITH: Can I go ahead and add on to that? HENRIE-BROWN: Please SMITH: That our relief, that we will be providing relief for Nebraska based on the individual assistance declarations for the nine counties, it will be retroactive back to March 9th. So that's something I always think about, it is March 21st, but we'll go back before March 9th and that will affect the returns that were due on March 15th, they will actually be postponed until the end of our relief date. And as Joe said, I can go back and fully tell you that for, I believe some of the more recent hurricanes, we've had as many as eight amendments to the original declaration and those amendments have added counties, you know, substantially beyond that. And every time that those counties are added, and we give our relief, it is retroactive to the original date of the event, not when we're actually declaring it. HENRIE-BROWN: Now, that was a wealth of very valuable information, so thank you both Danny and Joe. But to break it down from what I'm hearing, you pointed out some major points here. Danny, you specifically mentioned that it sounds like it's done by county. So, the state asked the President for it to be declared federally-declared disaster because they're trying to get help but it's done by county.

So, the state could have certain counties that are not granted that federally-declared disaster, is that correct? SMITH: That is correct. And it goes back to the slide that Joe and Anna had up that actually showed the white counties, those were the counties that were not impacted or not provided either public assistance or individual assistance. And so, I don't actually know how many counties there are in Nebraska, but at this point only 56 counties have been either granted public assistance and individual assistance or public assistance only.

HENRIE-BROWN: But it sounds like it's also a very fluid situation and Joe pointed out that they can amend what counties are covered. So where can they go for the most up-to-date information on the current status of what is federally-declared disaster and what is not? MCCARTHY: You want me to take to take that Danny? SMITH: For the HENRIE-BROWN: Go for it, Joe. SMITH: Yeah MCCARTHY: Okay. There's two places I would go. Number one is I will go to the FEMA website and that will show you, they actually have maps like the one we had in the presentation showing you the disaster area as it stands on that particular day. Like I said, it can be amended at any time.

And that will show you what, what areas are, what counties are in a federally-declared disaster area and what types of relief are being offered. And separate from that if you go to the IRS website, we will issue a press release, that will tell you what types of administrative relief we're being, we're offering those disaster, those affected taxpayers in that disaster area.

HENRIE-BROWN: Great. Danny, did you want to add anything else to that? SMITH: No. I think Joe's covered everything very well for that. Thank you. HENRIE-BROWN: Well, actually you both did. I think you did an outstanding job. And another point you, I heard, and correct me if I'm wrong is that even though there's delay between, you know, the governor asking for this relief and the President granting it, and I think you mentioned it was asked for back on March 9th and it was granted on the 21st, but we will go back to the March 9th date. Did I understand you correctly, Danny? SMITH: Yes, that is exactly correct. And I'll give you an even, a different example because I know this is one of the questions that came out, someone was asking about Alaska and the earthquake that they had in November of 2018 and whether or not that qualified. And in fact, it did qualify. They had individual assistance granted in that area and there was certain, in that case, they had boroughs instead of counties or parishes, they have boroughs. And I believe three boroughs that obtained relief and that relief, the declaration itself was not made by FEMA until January 31st, so it was over two months later that the actual declaration was made by the President and we retroactively went back to 11/30 and provided the individuals in the affected areas and we do that and that's another question. I'll just go ahead and try to address that, too. We used the zip codes of the tax returns filed in the areas. So, if you are in an area that's been impacted, and we provide relief, we're going to use the zip codes of the people that file tax returns in those areas whether it'd be a business or individual to code those taxpayers. So, they do not have to do anything. They are systematically provided the relief. But that's the one thing that Joe talked about are News Release that we will send out after, or after we provide relief. They will also provide the disaster phone number that you can call in if you are for some reason your address is not going to get you the automatic relief, you can call in and self-identify. HENRIE-BROWN: Now, that's really good because that was, I saw a lot of questions about this regarding the zip code. And one specifically asked, well, what if you're just a mile away from that zip code. And, Danny, I think you just answered it. You can actually self-identify by calling the, is it a Disaster Relief Hotline number and where can I find that? Is that on IRS.gov as well? SMITH: Yes. It's on our webpage that has all of the up-to-date information that Joe was talking about. You can go there. It's a 1-800 number and you can self-identify. One of the things that, just think about it from a normal standpoint, we've had the fires recently and people working in the hurricane zones afterwards. These individuals get to self-identify also because they are not being able to do their tax filings because they're working in the areas that have been impacted.

HENRIE-BROWN: Wow. This is a lot of very... MCCARTHY: Can I just add to that?... HENRIE-BROWN: Yes. MCCARTHY: Because, when you self-identify, if I'm not mistaken, Danny, you're only self-identifying for the administrative relief. You're not self-identifying for the tax relief.

Is that not correct? SMITH: Correct. You're self-identifying for the administrator relief.

HENRIE-BROWN: OK. Well, thank you. This is a good discussion. So, I do appreciate it. We've actually answered a number of questions that came up over and over again. So, this is great.

Let me look a little further here because I saw another one I wanted to hit because it was different. So, here we go. Danny, let me also direct this question to you please. They're asking, if a taxpayer incurs a casualty loss in a federally declared disaster area, but their principal resident business is out of the area, can they still claim losses incurred within the declared area. And I think you said yes if they self-identify. Is that correct? Let me give you their example. Okay. Go ahead or do you want the examples? He actually gave an example. Let me read it to you. It says, "For example, a taxpayer is on vacation in California, but their personal residence is in Texas and their vehicle is destroyed by a wildfire in California that has been declared a federally declared disaster area. Would they be eligible to claim the loss?" SMITH: Yes. And I saw that question. I thought it was really a good one. The reality of it is we give what I was calling systemic relief, where we go in and based on the zip codes where we know, or we believe the taxpayers to be, provide our administrator relief. But as we kind of discussed, there's lots of reasons why a taxpayer could be in the affected area. They could be on vacation. They could be visiting relatives. They could be just working there temporarily.

So, definitely, they would be able to self-identify. HENRIE-BROWN: Great. That's great information to know, very helpful. Another question for you, Danny, because you are a subject matter expert, we're taking advantage of you today, your expertise and your knowledge. They're asking, are the safe harbor provisions available for all disasters? SMITH: And I believe that was a question that Joe actually answered later in the presentation after he came up that there is a 2018-08 that actually is a safe harbor. I'm not sure exactly when the date start is actually one that you can use. But there's safe harbors that definitely are in there for the duration. There's 2018-09 which was a different one that came out at the same exact time which had some tables in it, which is not been, at this point, it was only for certain events, certain disaster events. And while it's been discussed to potentially be used for Hurricane Michael and let's say Hurricane Florence, it has not at this point been approved for anything other than that and it's not been extended. MCCARTHY: Let me just to add to that, Revenue Procedure 2018-8 is available to any disaster that happened in 2018. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay, great.

And for all this information for people who are furiously writing down notes, we have this information available on IRS.gov, is that correct? MCCARTHY: Sometimes it's available on IRS.gov.

Sometimes, you have more luck looking for the Revenue Rulings and the Revenue Procedures just by going to the internet. But for like the press releases, for administrative relief, those are definitely going to the IRS website. And if you want to know where the disaster area is, it's been claimed, how many counties or boroughs or parishes are affected, I would go to the FEMA website. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay. Thank you. Danny, let me shoot another question to you if that's OK.

Is county tax assessor valuation valid as a method of valuation? SMITH: I think that's one of those facts and circumstances questions, more than something you answer yes or no. It would be definitely a method to utilize I think in any of the ways of determining fair market value. But, as I know, I live in Florida and the way the tax assessor does things is not necessarily the best sometimes. So, I think it would be a helpful tool, but I don't know if I rely upon it totally.

MCCARTHY: Let me just add to that Danny, I know that in Connecticut, where I live, they reassess properties every 10 years. So, even if you had an assessed valuation, it might be dated differently in Connecticut, they'll have the regular value and then a much lower 70 percent of it being the assessed value of the property. So, even then, it would reflect the fair market value of the property even if the house or the building was just reevaluated. So, I personally won't hang my hat on that, you might want to get a professional appraiser out or get some real estate individuals involved to do some sort of comparable analysis to determine fair market value.

HENRIE-BROWN: Okay. Well, let me, wonderful having Danny as our subject matter expert. But let me also utilize our other Stakeholder Liaisons on the call. Richard Furlong, I'm going to direct this next question to you, if I may. RICHARD FURLONG: Certainly. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay, great.

Thanks, Rich. Okay. And the next question is: Can an individual change their election to go backward for the tax year 2017 to go forward instead in 2018 for claiming casualty loss? I guess they're not sure of whether they can have the choice of doing it either or as far as claiming the loss. FURLONG: Yeah. That's a very good question. And I know Joe talked about the election for disasters in federally declared disaster areas to go back and elect to treat it as if the disaster occurred in the prior year. So, let's say you were victimized by one of the major disasters in calendar year 2018. You ran the numbers. You saw that if you went back and you amended your 2017 Form 1040 and claimed the casualty deduction in the federally declared disaster area on the 2017, it could give you a quick refund and perhaps a refund that is both quicker and larger than you might have in the 2018 return because as Joe mentioned, a very important point that I think most of us are familiar with following the recent tax law changes is that with the increase in the standard deduction for beginning in 2018 and over the next seven years or so, there will be fewer itemizers. And for those who are the focus of today's presentation which are the individual taxpayers claiming a casualty loss in a federally declared disaster area, you would still be claiming that on Schedule A, but if you itemize. So, in 2017, when the standard deduction was approximately half of what it will be in 2018, there will be perhaps more benefit for those who were victimized by disasters in 2018 to go back and claim it on the '17 return. But, and that's the lead in, Jennifer, to your question. What if you wanted to go back and revoke that election to deduct the loss in the preceding year? One can do that and here again the excellent resource that Anna and Joe mentioned today, Publication 547 has a section on page 16 about revoking the election to deduct the loss in the preceding year. So, you could file an amended return for 2017, eliminating the election that you had previously made, but you have to do that in a time sensitive manner and it has to be filed on or before the date that is 90 days after the due date for making the election and on or before the date you file any return or amended return for the year that included the disaster loss. So, that would be 2018.

So, there's specific information again in Publication 547 on page 16. So, that's a long answer to the question, Jennifer, but, yes, it can be done if all of the requirements are met.

HENRIE-BROWN: That's a great answer and you gave them a resource, too. So, thank you so much, Rich. Joe, you wanted to add something? MCCARTHY: Yes. You know. Maybe I interpreted the question differently than Rich. But, my interpretation to the question was if you suffer a casualty loss in 2018, can you carry that casualty loss to your 2019 tax return and the answer to that would be no. If you look to Section 165 and you also look to the Revenue Procedure 2016-53 or 2018-53, you'll see that it's only going back to the prior or proceeding year return.

You can't carry it forward to the subsequent year return. HENRIE-BROWN: OK, great, very thorough. Go ahead, Rich. FURLONG: And that's true. The one area that we didn't get into today because of its complexities are the impact of casualty losses that might create an NOL, in other words, a net operating loss. And, Joe, you may have mentioned NOLs and its mentioned in our publications. If your loss, your loss after factoring in all of the requirements that Anna and Joe discussed today, the insurance reimbursements, the decrease in the fair market value, et cetera, that creates an overall loss. Then, then, you have potentially had what is referred to as an NOL and in certain circumstances. The NOL can be elected to be carried forward. But that's a topic for another webinar because it is so involved, but absent the creation of an NOL, you would not, as Joe mentioned, you would not be carrying forward a 2018 casualty loss to calendar year 2019 for 2019 returns. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay. Thank you so much. Here is a question I'm going to toss out to our other presenter, Anna, and Joe could also answer as well or anybody for that reason. What if your business is not in the disaster area, but your tax preparer is? How is that handled? Anna, Joe. FALKENSTEIN: Okay. Sure, I'll take it. MCCARTHY: Go ahead. FALKENSTEIN: Basically, again if your business was not in the disaster area but your business records were with the tax preparer, then, you could take some benefit there, you know especially with some of that administrative relief, if you were able to, but you would probably have to self-identify in those situations. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay. Well, thank you very much. That answered that question. Here's an interesting question here. Let me just make sure we're trying to hit all the ones that people are asking over and over again. Okay. Here's a common one. So, I'm going to throw this back to our subject matter expert, Danny, if he's willing to answer it. Here we go. Do you still have to itemize deductions with the new $24,000 standard deduction? I thought the loss was added to any deduction in 2018. SMITH: Well, that was one of the things that I think Joe and Anna kind of covered, is there's a lot of change going on in the tax law, as well as, in the casualty loss and the disaster loss area. And if you go backwards a few years ago, that, for certain events, that might be the case. But as we go forward, everything is now still an itemized deduction area. And so, you would not, you basically have to overcome a lot more loss, I guess, to be able to take a dollar's worth of deduction. So, I hope I answered that correctly. Joe, you want to weigh in? MCCARTHY: Yes. I want to chime in on this because this is a major point of confusion within the tax practitioner community and just the tax community in general. There's like four separate types of disaster related rules. The first one is the pre-2018 rules. That's one. And then, as a subset of the pre-2018 rules, there is a separate section for 2016 and 2017 disaster losses and then a separate sub-section which will relates to the Harvey, Irma, and Maria hurricanes and the California wildfires, and then, separate from that is the 2018 going forward. So, what we discussed today is only for the 2018 disasters going forward and not those pre-2018 and those two subsets of 2016, 2017 and Harvey, Irma, and Maria which are, can be totally different rules.

So, whenever you think about adding your disaster casualty losses on top of your standard deduction, that does not apply for disasters that happen in 2018 going forward to 2025 unless Congress specifically makes that exception. Those exceptions were made by Congress for certain losses in 2016 and 2017 specifically with Harvey, Irma, and Maria and the California wildfires.

So, forget all those pre-2017 rules and focus strictly on the 2018 going forward rules and that will eliminate a lot of the confusion that's out there. FURLONG: And, Joe... MCCARTHY: If I didn't confuse people even more. HENRIE-BROWN: No. No. No. I think you did a great job, but I think Rich wants to chime in. Richard? FURLONG: Yeah. Just to add to that, there were some questions coming in, in addition to the questions about whether or not one still has to itemize for any personal casualty losses and we've answered that question, yes. But everybody should be aware that the limitations that I think Anna may have addressed, what was referred to as the $100 rule, each casualty and theft loss must be reduced by $100. And also, the 10 percent of AGI rule, those are still applicable for 2018 personal casualty losses in federally declared disaster areas. And there's a great table in Publication 547, Deduction Limits Rules for Personal Use Property, that you want to take a look at. So, we did get that question, Jennifer, a couple of times as to whether or not the new tax law had modified the rules for the 10 percent, the 100 , what is referred to as the $100 rule and the 10 percent rule and the answer is, no, that the law has not modified that. MCCARTHY: I just want to add particularly to that, Rich, in that these rules are just for individuals and individuals only. These rules like the 10 percent, the $100 and the 10 percent AGI rule and the itemized deduction rules do not apply to business casualty losses. So, that's very important to the business owners out there. FURLONG: Excellent point. And, you know, we've had, I think Danny addressed the question about the business property in an area apart from where the taxpayer lives, there's also a question about a rental property.

Someone had a client or themselves with a rental property in a federally declared disaster area in North Carolina where there are a lot of beach rental houses, can they, can potentially a casualty loss be deducted related to the rental property and the answer is yes. On the Form 4684 though, it would be on Section B, business and income producing property and not personally used property. So, you would want to look at the instructions for 4684 if you're claiming a casualty loss for either business property and/or income producing property such as rentals.

MCCARTHY: Good point. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay, great, wonderful discussion. Thank you and thanks for all chiming in and sharing your knowledge and expertise. This is a great discussion. Danny, let me throw another question back your way. This one is asking are there any special rules that apply to farmers.

SMITH: Now, that's an interesting question. Farmers, you know, are unique in a lot of ways and I don't know if I want to try to touch that one because of they are, you know, it is a business being in a farm and, you know, typically, there's a lot of different things that come out with relief that they're given due to droughts, you know, that you don't normally see in everything else. With this flooding, I know most of it is going to be impacting farmers. So, I don't think I want to address that too much just because of my limited knowledge with the farming aspect of it. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay. Thank you.

Let's go on to another question. There is a publication out there, I think it's 225, you can find it on IRS.gov, directed to farmers. But of course, for the most up to date information, you want to go to the Disaster Assistance webpage on IRS.gov and FEMA as both Joe and Danny pointed out before. Okay. Let me go on to another question here. We've answered a lot of these questions because we came up with the same questions over and over again. So, this is great. Let's see.

Here's an interesting question. Danny, if I may direct it to you, it says, if you live in a State or area where hurricanes or other types of natural disasters that happen from to time to time, natural for that happens according to them, would that still be unexpected? SMITH: I think that's a great question given that I live in Florida and were, you know, I've been blessed to have two hurricanes come by my house twice in the last two, three years. I, it, would seem like it may be something that would not be casualty because it's not sudden and unexpected, but the reality of it is it does fit. It's just amazing, you know, the areas that flood right now are areas that continuously seem like they flood every so many years. But, fortunately, I guess from the standpoint of the tax code, those are still considered casualties. HENRIE-BROWN: Okay, great information. Thank you for clarifying that. And I'm going to ask a question of our presenters again, Anna and Joe, if you'll go ahead and answer this question, it'd be appreciated. They're asking, "Does "Where's my Refund?" work with someone who has filed a return with an insured spouse?" Anna, can you take that one for us? FALKENSTEIN: I apologize. I was having trouble with my mute button.

HENRIE-BROWN: That's Okay. FALKENSTEIN: Well, unfortunately, we're talking disaster today. We're not really talking injured spouse and I'm not really sure what that has to do with disasters.

So, I'm going to defer on that question at this point, but I really don't think so.

HENRIE-BROWN: Okay. Well, sorry I asked that question. It looked like somebody had wanted it to be asked. So, that's why I asked it. Okay. Let's move on then. With the new tax law, it will be more difficult to itemize a casualty loss than in past years. And they're asking how, isn't that the case, then is there any other option to take the casualty loss or do you have to itemize, and I'll direct that question to Richard. FURLONG: Excellent question and I think we've looked at variations on this topic because certainly the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the new tax law, has a significant impact on personal casualty losses. The first one that was mentioned in the presentation is that now if you are claiming a casualty loss in your 1040 for personal use property, you must include the FEMA designation, the FEMA disaster declaration number and that's right at the top of the front page of Section A of the Form 4684. But the other point is that obviously the IRS is going to see a material reduction in the number of Schedule As we filed this year because those who, and those deductions of Schedule A obviously are things like most common mortgage interest, state and local income and property taxes, charitable contributions, casualty losses, again, with the caveat that they have to be in a federally declared disaster area beginning in 2018 for personal use property. So, yeah, you could have a situation where because when you itemize your deductions including any allowable casualty loss calculated on the 4684 Form and then carried over to Schedule A, you are still below the standard deduction whereas if the casualty had occurred in 2017, you might have been over it. So, this is to the very important point that Joe McCarthy made earlier where you want to look closely that if you elect to amend your 2017 return and do it timely and claim the loss, the allowable loss on the '17 return for the casualty that occurred in 2018, you could get a tax benefit that you could not otherwise get on 2018. So, it requires some judicious planning by the impacted, tax, taxpayer and perhaps their tax professional. So, Joe, would you agree with that? MCCARTHY: Yes. HENRIE-BROWN: No. No. No. That's it. That's all the time we have for questions. I'm sorry, folks. We go on for hours, but we ran out of time. I want to thank Danny Smith and Richard Furlong for joining us and sharing their knowledge, expertise and answering your questions. And, Anna and Joe, before we close the Q&;A session, what are the most important points you want the attendees to remember from today's webinar? FALKENSTEIN: I'll go first. The key points that we hope that you'll take away from this presentation are that there are two different types of relief for disaster victims. The first one is administrative relief and the second is tax relief.

Administrative relief is the granting of additional time to file tax returns like a 1040 or to pay taxes like estimated taxes or something like paying or contributing to your qualified retirement plan a little later than you normally do. Now, tax relief, a little bit different, on that hand, we're looking at claiming the casualty loss on a tax return and then you would then determine whether you're going to do it in the current year or go back to the prior year. Joe, over to you. MCCARTHY: Okay. The type of FEMA assistance provided to a disaster area is generally determined by the type of relief either administrative relief and/or tax relief. So, public assistance only qualifies for tax relief. Individual assistance qualifies for administrative relief and tax relief and individual and public assistance also qualifies for administrative relief and tax relief. I know we covered a lot of information some of which was pretty complex, but we hope you walk away with a better understanding of the tax benefits available to victims of federally declared disasters. One last thing, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act provide that for taxable years 2018 to 2025, personal casualty losses are deductible only to the extent they are attributable to a federally declared disaster. In addition, the procedures on how to make the casualty loss claim have also changed. Starting in 2018 with claiming a casualty loss of the tax return, the payment disaster declaration number is now required to be entered on Form 4684 and you can find that four-digit FEMA disaster declaration number on the FEMA website. Now, I want to reemphasize that these rules do not, I repeat, do not apply to business. Let me repeat that one more time. These casualty losses do not apply to businesses. So, businesses can still claim casualty losses regardless of whether they're in a federally declared disaster area or not.

Jennifer, it's all yours. HENRIE-BROWN: Thanks, Joe, and thanks again to both our presenters, Joseph McCarthy and Anna Falkenstein for providing important information and updates on tax relief for disasters and also for Danny Smith and Richard Furlong for helping answer the questions. Thank you all so much. If you attended today's web conference presentation for at least 50 minutes after the official start time of the webinar, you will receive a certificate of completion for one certificate that you can use with your credential organization for possible CE credit. If you participated for 100 minutes after the official start time of the web conference, you will receive a certification of completion for two credits. And if you're eligible for continuing education from the IRS and registered with your valid PTIN, your credit will be posted to your PTIN account. If you're eligible for continuing education from the California Tax Education Council otherwise known as CTEC, your credit will be posted to your CTEC account as well. If you qualified and have not received your certificates and/or credit by April 19th, 2019, please e-mail us at the address on the slide, CL.SL.Web.Conference.Team@IRS.gov. Also, if you don't already know and are interested in finding out who your local Stakeholder Liaison is, send us an e-mail using the address showing on the slide and we'll send you that information. As part of the services effort to provide you with timely topics and interesting speakers, we'd appreciate it if you would just take a few minutes to complete the short evaluation before you exit. Please include in the survey's comment section or on the "Ask Question" feature on your viewing screen any future webinar topic requests you may have or pertinent information you'd like to see addressed in an IRS Fact Sheet, Tax Tip, or Frequently Asked Questions on IRS.gov. Just click the "Survey" button on the left side of your screen. If it doesn't come up and you did not previously disable the popup blocker on your computer, you may need to do so now in order to get the survey. We hope you will join us for future webinars and we have one more webinar planned for this month. On March 28th, we will be hosting a session on doing a Paycheck Checkup. And, yes, we will be offering certificates and CE credit for this webinar. To register for this and other upcoming IRS webinars, please visit us at IRS.gov using keyword "webinars" and select the "Webinars for Tax Practitioners" or "Webinars for Small Businesses". It has been a pleasure to be with you and on behalf of the Internal Revenue Service, I would like to thank you for attending today's webinar. It's important for the IRS to maintain strong partnerships with the tax professional community, industry associations, and other federal, state, local government organization. You make our job a lot easier by sharing the information that allows for proper tax reporting. Thank you again for your time, your attendance and participation in today's webinar. This concludes today's webinar. Have a great day.